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You're listening to special programming sponsored by Triple Eight Media Group. The content of this program does not reflect the views or opinions of 91.5 Jazz & More, the University of Nevada Las Vegas, or the Board of Regents of the Nevada System of Higher Education.

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You're tuned in to The 411 with SOS, the business of the music business for those who don't

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know but need to know.

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Welcome to The 411 with SOS. I'm your host, Sandra Smith, and we are wrapping up our series on the business of music. Today, I am speaking to an industry veteran and a really good friend of mine. Maurice Harley is an extremely successful industry entrepreneur because he owns his own label. The show that you heard earlier was with Jay Brown. That artist is signed to his label and he has stayed true and committed into developing this artist for more than 10 years. Maurice, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the show. I would love for you to give us some insight and some understanding of what the journey has been like for you as somebody who has stayed committed to developing independent artists while Simultaneously being a part of the larger music community Welcome to the 411. How you doing? Thank you for having me Sandra. I appreciate being on man. It is so dope. I just had a great conversation with your artist Jay Brown and you know again full disclosure We're family so but in on top of being family, you know We're brutally honest, you know about what is gonna work and what's not gonna work And I was just telling the audience and telling John that you guys have taken this journey for the past 13 14 15 years however long it's been and you are now at the place where you're going to pop in a big way because You know We had a lot of success with his vibe single last summer and the project before that but these two singles that you're dropping simpon, which is out right now and Don't rush which is coming out later in the month with tank are gonna put him over the top. No question about it Can you please tell us what was it about him that made you stay committed over the course of 13 years? Well, to bring this to bring this music that we're getting now,

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you know, we're brutally honest with with each other. So the read I found my business partner time, until Reagan found John, I had an artist before that, her name was Sway, that Sylvia Roan signed, who was the president of Motown. And so, as artists get signed and they get the big head, she decided to listen to other people outside forces, and we started, we and got John signed to Republic Records and the business side of this is crazy. There's so much politics in the music business. I was working at Universal at the time and my boss didn't want to work the project, so they dropped John. And I always felt bad for his career that he took off because of my politics And that that's the real reason why I stay committed with John We stopped we stopped working together for about seven years because at that time R&B music wasn't really doing it

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Yeah, yeah

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Yeah, unfortunately, you know, we had that Urban AC tag attached to it as well and people just perceived it to be old people's music So yeah, yeah.

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Yeah. So, so, so once R&B started opening up and Chris Brown and the other REOs and everybody else was going, you know, on that format, it's like, yeah, I've been listening to all your old music. Let's, let's go again. And we've been rocking together again for the last four years.

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Truthfully, this is an industry, I mean, there's a lot of us that are real as F in this industry and we've somehow survived in spite of that. You're one of them. I'm one of them. It takes a real special person though to to be loyal in an industry where there is no such thing. There's not a lot of loyalty. People mess with you. People mess with you because you're hot and the minute you not, the phone not ringing, ain't nobody calling, they stop, right? So we very much are in an industry where people are used and they are disposed of. It speaks volumes about you as a person that you even cared that politics affected his career adversely due to no fault of his. So thank you for being a decent human being because you know if we all behave that way the world would be a better place. All the little things that go with that aside that is the hard and fast truth. But you have spent, I know, a lot of money developing this artist's career. Again, why did you do that?

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The reason why I stayed with John throughout my other business partner who was a Grammy Award-winning producer, he wrote the first single that John came out with which was called Sunrise Sunset and he and I parted after the second single which was Give It To You, he would always tell me, you know, John's not a star, you know, you should stop, you know, effing with John, you should just leave him alone. But a very close friend of mine, which is uber successful, you can Google him, his name is Carvin Hagen. He discovered music so child, he's written for Jill Scott. You know, he has multiple Grammys, you know, and, and Carmen Ortwell was telling me, like, no, you should use a star and stick with it. Because there were days that I wanted to, because I could have bought another business with what I spent on John. And I, and there were days where I was just like, yo, I don't want to do this no more. I'm about to give up. I quit. And because I'm frustrated because, you know, he's not getting a lot of shows. I'm putting out records and getting traction. But then COVID happened. It's like, I can't keep doing this. But Carvin kept saying to me, no, stick with it. Stick with it. And so I would listen to him. I would listen to my wife tell me and you and other people. And I was like, yeah, whatever. And I would just try to act like I didn't see the amount of money that I was spending to develop the album. And once I started writing the records, I like to say the John's two biggest records that he had, I wrote. So that's what kept me into it more so than anything.

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Royalty checks! Royalty checks!

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Because now you're invested. Not just from a financial place, but from a creative place.

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Yeah, because I mean, it was something new for me, just writing and it just like it gave me, it gave me something else just to focus on other than I'm spending so much money trying to develop this artist. And I think that a lot of times that people from the outside looking in, look at artists and say it's an overnight success. Well those do happen, like Justin Bieber was the overnight success and a lot of others, but the real truth of it, there's no such thing as an overnight success. You know, there's people that's, you know, 10 years in the making and when they hit, you'd be like, you know, whatever. Like Tank told me, he said, I didn't get my biggest, my number one record until I was 36 years old. And he had been out there doing it forever. He said, Mo, I got my first number one record when I was 36. And he had been out there grinding, you know, with the Leah and the Underdogs and all that. His first number one record as an artist was when he was 36. So it's just, there's no such thing as an overnight success but I just kept working and just praying that this would pay off. For me being in the business 26 years, I know a lot of people and people think just because you know a lot of people, that's gonna help you. And that's, it's sometimes even a hindrance or a detriment to knowing all the people in the music business that, you know, because you're thinking that, yo, I can call the head of A&R at this label, that's my man. He's gonna help me out. And your phone calls don't get returned. I was on, me and No I.D., this is a true story, me and No I.D., who wrote, who's a famous producer, he and I was on a private plane together. And No I.D. was like, Mo, come see me, come see me. I'm like, No I.D., don't take me out again. Just don't do that. So No ID was the head of Capitol, you know, and he's like, Moe, three o'clock on Friday, come see me. I'll be there. I show up at Capitol at three o'clock on Friday and No ID is nowhere to be found. He didn't answer his phone. And I'm sorry. And I'm like, we're on a private plane together sitting next to each other talking for four hours from Chicago to Venice. And I'm like, yo, this is crazy. So it's not always the people that you know, they're not always going to look out for you because if they don't feel like they're going to get something out of it, then they don't want to help you. And that's a sad part about this business. And in life. It's not just this business, but it's in life in general.

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I was just going to say.

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Sometimes that people always have to get up.

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Because the business is still made up of people, and you find a great amount of people that are haters,

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to lock up a better word.

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I can't think of anything more original. They're haters, and they don't want to see you succeed. That's the truth. You know, so you've got to overcome all of that. You know, so again, trying to be in this business or any other business, you know, where lots of monies can be made and same can happen very quickly. You, you know, like I was just asking John, you know, what kept him going during the times when he wasn't working for you or he wasn't with another label or he wasn't doing anything musical that we could see, right? What kept him going? And he said, you know, I just, I kept the faith. I kept believing in myself. I kept believing that someday it's going to come back around. And that sounds cliche, but it really is about that. It's about you being patient and it's about you being certain that you're on the right track even when everybody's telling you, I think I see it.

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Everybody. Yeah, everybody. And one thing I have to, and I'll say this, every artist is crazy. All of y'all have lost your minds. All the artists that are maybe listening, all y'all are nuts. So I have to remind John sometimes, because John was signed to Wyclef. John was signed to Jaheim. And I have to remind him, like, Jaheim never helped you get a top ten record. Wyclef never got you a top ten record. You've gotten four top ten records because of me. And so, you know, so sometimes when he wants to feel himself, because he's gotten a little bit of success, I have to remind him, like, you know, hey, it's me, it's me, you know, those guys have more, have more power than I do with a bigger name, but I'm the one that got you your four, four thousand dollars.

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Because you weren't sickled, because you stayed the court, because, but Maurice, one of the advantages that you have, you know, you have a bunch of advantages. You have the ability to invest the money. You have the ability to be on the inside of the industry. But your greatest ability is to, even when you're frustrated and tired and we know that you get there, you stay the course.

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Yeah, I hang up the phone and I start cackling and I get mad. But the next day I wake up and I'm like, okay. Or I'll get an email from somebody or somebody will send something on YouTube like, yo, this is my favorite song, or I love this record, or, you know, or that, or I remember when, going off topic, but on topic, I remember when John performed the first song, the song I wrote, Moon, co-wrote Moon, I actually started crying. Nobody really knows that, but I actually started crying because it was like, I'm watching my words coming out of his mouth and people are singing along to what I'm writing. And so those are the reasons why I stayed in the course because this day sounds good, you know. I'm like, I'm not doing this no more. I quit, I'm done. Y'all and I were on tour, we got into a fight, and I'm like, yo, I'm done.

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You're fired.

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I quit.

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I can't do this no more.

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I'm sick of you.

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Yep, all right.

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Good luck with your career.

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I wish you the best of luck.

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And a whole bunch of other expletives. Because I know you. But you are a savvy businessman. You're a very good businessman. That's something that people may not know about you. Because you have a lot of... You're a business person. And it's not just a business person that does music. You're a great music business person, and you're a great business person. So knowing that you are dealing with… Sometimes they're a little bit like children, honestly, artists are. And so we've got to dig deep and find extra patience, extra stamina, and extra whatever it is to bring them back to the full and to keep them on the course. Because being in this business, you can get very distracted very easily, right? There's a lot of shiny objects that are constantly, and one of the things that he also said was just surrounding yourself with good people, which to me is like if you hear nothing and you take nothing away from these talks. It is so important to be in the company of people that will help you move your ball down the field.

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Yeah, and one thing that I've instituted when we go to the studio, I don't believe in having a bunch of people come to the studio or a lot of drinking. I'm like, yo, we're not

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unless it's a party. Right, exactly.

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This is business. So so I remember John wanted to bring somebody with him to the studio. And he did it one time. And like, yo, they're not allowed to come ever again. Because when you have other people that are there, it's a distraction. And this is a business. You know, even though I haven't seen any ROI return on investment for you other people that may not know. I haven't seen any ROI on my investment. But you gotta surround yourself and not, because a lot of people go into the studio and they're getting high and they're drinking and they got girls. You lose focus on what we're doing. And that's what, and John hates it because his favorite thing is I'm a grown a grown a man. You ain't got nothing to do with nothing. Studio time cost money. You gotta pay for the studio, you gotta pay for the engineer. You can be a grown man when you get to the hotel room but the grown man that's paying for all this.

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It's me.

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We don't do studio. We don't have groupies in the studio. We don't smoke weed in the studio. We don't drink in the studio. It's about business.

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Discipline.

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And I think that a lot of people don't look at it as a business. Because you could be, is John the greatest singer ever?

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No.

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But, but, there's a, I tell John all the time, there's a billion other people that can sing better than you.

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Right.

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But they don't have, they don't have, you know, they don't have the connections, they don't have needs, they don't have the discipline, they don't have all that. And you state of course, and sometimes when you don't listen, you know, I tell them like, okay, well, do it your way, let's see how it works.

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And it doesn't.

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And a lot of times, and they don't. And you're like, I know. And nobody, I don't care who it is, whether it's Sylvia Rhone or the biggest name in the music business, we all make mistakes. None of us are ever right. It's all a debt thing. I remember working for Clive Davis and I was there with Jay Records when Alicia Keys and Olivia was supposed to be, Olivia was supposed to be the star, Alicia Keys was supposed to be whatever and they were banking so much money on Olivia. Olivia was you couldn't find Olivia on a milk carton right now. Olivia who? And Alicia Keys is. Exactly. And Alicia Keys is a global superstar and that's so none of us none of us know

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Yeah. Yeah, it's all a guess. And a bit of a gamble, right? It's all a gamble. Is it all a gamble, Maurice? It's all a gamble.

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That's all a gamble.

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I'm having sleepless nights about this new single right now. Don't worry. It's all a gamble. I don't know why.

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That's because you are prone to worry because you want to worry. Because you know, I know, and everybody we've talked to has told you that single is a hit. So... But you're right. But you're right though. You cannot take anything for granted and nothing is a given. Even the most blatant thing that you think is going to go in one direction, it ends up going left. So I totally agree with you. So you're saying that, you know, not on top of being certain that you've got something,

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don't be overconfident. Never be overconfident, because when you're overconfident, you know, it doesn't go your way as you think it should, and you're frustrated.

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Devastated, yeah.

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And, you know, so, and there's been quite a few times where I've been like, yo, Bob

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is a hit. It's a hit.

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We're going to be touring everywhere.

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It's a hit.

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I wrote it. It's a hit.

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Cricket? Cricket?

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Like, okay, well.

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You know, it went number, I think it went number five or, actually it went number five on Billboard and it's like, where are my shows at? So John still hasn't penetrated the market. You know, I was talking to our booking agent. He's like, he just hasn't penetrated yet and doesn't know why, but this, you know, having Tank on the record, endorsing him is, you know, it's going to hopefully help. And so it's just all, it's, you know, the labels having, you know, deeper pockets than I do, they can call the Chris Brabs and say, I need Chris on a feature or Young Blue or whomever is hot right now, you know, where they are going to ask for $100,000 or $200,000 to do a feature, I ain't got that kind of money to do that. Right. I got, I got, I got, I got, Can You Do Me A Favor money, which is free.

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But you also have great connections, because, again, you've got Tank on this single with him, right? And sometimes you're right. It's just the right collaboration will open doors You know we also I was just telling John that the thing that I always tell people to his patience is your friend right you know so We can't have expectations of how the audience is going to react to something right you know remember Pharrell said he Happy had been out for a year before people found it, and it became a hit. So, there are a lot of intangibles in our business as well. Other reasons for you to be fully buttoned up, for you to be totally professional, for you to understand that you're not just in entertainment but this entertainment is a business and businesses require money, businesses require advertising, businesses require all all of the same things no matter what that commodity is and so you got to put

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you got to put that into it right? Absolutely, definitely you have to you got to do that. It's a lot of hard work people just think that you can just sing in a mic and put it out to the world and you're going to be an instant star. It doesn't always work that way. In fact, John and I have been working together off and on for a long time, since he was a teenager. Yeah, he said more than 13 years. Yeah, he was a teenager, so we've been together a long time, and you know, he calls me his second dad, because I cut him out like I'm his dad at times. But you also support him and nurture him

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like a dad. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's just a hard... The thing I hope anybody gets from this

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conversation is just, you know, stay the course. Even when people tell you that it's horrible, you know, or why are you doing this, you know, don't always listen. But you also have to have with all in you to know that your music is whack as well. You need to listen, qualify people to listen to it, because I, you, or most of us that's been in the music business, I've had people come up to me and say, man, please listen, I got the hottest, I'm the hottest rapper, I'm the hottest R&B singer. And I say, okay, let me listen to it. And I'm like, yo, man, this is horrible, man. This is, I mean, and then they get offended because I tell them the truth. But you can't, I said, you can't, I said, you let anybody else hit in? Did you let your family, my family, my friends, I was like, yo, did you let anybody else hit in? Because you can't, you got to have some type of moral competence in you to understand that you're not hot.

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I always tell people, poking in them and your mama are not good judge of what's good. They're biased. They're biased. What is the litmus test? Does your stuff sound like the stuff that they're

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playing on the radio? Yeah, or even if you don't even go radio no more, does it sound like, or look at the most played thing on Spotify or one of the Spotify channels, you know, the curated playlist. And would your, would your music fit on one of these playlists that has millions of listeners on that playlist? Would your songs fit, you know, because radio it's unfortunate, but radio is a dying breed now. It's all about streaming. However, now with dealing with radio, it's, it's, it's, a different, another thing that you gotta say, well, radio is, well, how is it streaming? Before it wasn't, you never had to say it. It would be like, well, it's a New York planet. New York planet, I'm a player. But now it's like, okay, how is it streaming in the market? What about Shazam? What is your Shazam? There's so many things that go into, you know, getting an artist played on the radio or getting him on tour or getting him, you know, or getting whether it's a male or female exposed now. Yeah. You know, it's a lot more difficult than it used to be. Used to be, yes. Used to be, you could go to a one stop and, and Nobody knows what that is.

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Nobody out there but you and I know what that is. Yeah, but I know, but I have to say

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Tower Records! A nice way to say, but you know what I'm talking about. You'll deal with the one-stop and get your record doing well. So there's so many different nuances now that goes into getting an artist seen. Because they're looking at your Pandora, Spotify, Tidal, Apple Music numbers.

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It has become a difficult game, yes. It has become way harder to get.

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Because you got so many different, it used to be this billboard sound scan that you had to deal with. Now you've got to deal with four or five other entities and radio.

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Very true, very true.

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So when people are trying to get into this business, it's not as easy as everybody thinks it is because you can just go to the studio, put it down on all these different platforms, and think that you're going to be discovered overnight. It doesn't happen that way. It does not. You are correct. You are correct.

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So in spite of all of the... No, no, no, I'm not. No, what I was going to say was, you know, and in spite of all of that, you know, people are still passionate and people are still wanting to be a part of our industry, which is really a good thing. You know, it's just to say again that you have to be patient. You have to be talented. You have to be hardworking. You have to be connected. You have to work the circuit. Like it is still a process in spite of the idea that you know, there's so many avenues for you to get your music exposed. That's smoke and mirrors. It's not actually the reality. It's even harder now to make to the point that you're making. And you know, saying that to say, you then need to really be in love with this. This is your first, second, and third option and you know you're gonna make it or bust basically because if you are kind of dabbling in it and you're not serious about it, it's gonna be something that's gonna be hard to penetrate. Right? So thank you so much. Well let me just say that I believe after this season all of your worries and all of your stress for your artist is going to be alleviated somewhat because you have delivered two hit records for this young man and ultimately the whole world's going to know who is.

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Well, probably that if it doesn't work out that way, that we can have a cursing session on the radio or in person, however you want to do it.

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We're going to have to do it in person because on the radio they fine you. The FCC don't like that. But I'm not worried. We're not going to have to do it, Maurice. You have a talented artist. You have you, a savvy businessman. And you've written music that speaks to the audience. You're good. You're good. You guys are going to be good. You're going to be great. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate you. And I will talk to you later. Thanks for joining us.

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so so so so so the next video.