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You're listening to special programming sponsored by Triple Eight Media Group. The content of this program does not reflect the views or opinions of 91.5 Jazz & More, the University of Nevada Las Vegas, or the Board of Regents of the Nevada System of Higher Education.

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You're tuned in to The 411 with SOS, the business of the music business for those who don't

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know but need to know.

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Hello, welcome to The 411 with SOS. I'm your host Sandra Smith. We are continuing our conversation on the business of music. Just a reminder, you can hear our show the second Sunday of every month at 830 a.m. right here on 91.5 Jazz and More. Today I have a treat for you guys. My sister is here. She's not my biological sister. She's my sister friend. We became friends because everybody in the industry kept telling me that I sounded like her. So if you guys find a similarity in our voices, she's actually another person. It's not just me talking to

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myself.

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I have with me today on the show my friend Andrea Harley, who is a longtime friend, but But she and her husband also own an independent record label and as we continue our conversation that is geared towards enlightening and giving education and information to independent artists, I thought it would be a great time to talk with her. She can shed some light on the process and just how if you are patient, patience is your friend. So Andrea, welcome to my show. Hi, thank you so much for having me. Appreciate you. So give us a little bit of information on your label. Tell us the name of the label. The name of the label is called Mocha Music. Tell me about the artists that you and Maurice have signed to the label. So we have one artist currently signed, Jay Brown, he's an R&B singer and he's been with us for 10 years. 10 years. 10 years. And it's just now starting to pop. Right. He had a very successful, well, he's had a couple of successful singles. The last single called Vibe was a top 10 on the R&B chart, if I'm not mistaken. I think the record peaked at like number eight or something.

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Yep, that's correct.

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Which is quite significant, and it's quite an accomplishment for an independent artist that is not funded by a major record label and major record label I mean they have bottomless amounts of money. So I agree with you and your husband in that I think that John is a tremendous talent. Thank you so much. And I have I'm happy to be a part of the process. I was very instrumental in the success of the last single. I'm really proud of that. We're all committed to helping you guys break him even further. He's dropping a new single in a couple of weeks that we all believe is going to really, you know, really take him to an even higher level of success and awareness. But the length of time that it has taken you from the time you guys discovered John to literally now Ten years is a long time So as we talk about The process, you know a lot of people think that just because they're talented That's enough for them to be able to jump onto the scene and pop and it happens quick quick quick fast like that Tell me that that is not the case. No, that isn't the case It's an arduous task. It takes a lot of time, money from our own savings account to make sure that this artist reaches the specific level that we would like for him to reach, to reach that performance goal. It's money for styling. It's money moving him from San Francisco to whatever radio station is requesting that he performs. And aside from that, it's really the prerequisite are the relationships that my husband and I have. Just talking about the artist, what do we bring to the table? How can we help your station? How can we partner with you? And that was a huge factor for for us in that, to your point, we don't have the endless well of money, the endless money growing out of trees that a Universal has or a Sony Music Group. So we had to be very strategic in where we wanted to place his music and what type of music we wanted to kind of lean into. And so for us that was the R&B format. format, correct? But to just connect that dot, ten years ago, my husband discovered him in Detroit, bought it to Universal Music at the time. My husband was working for Universal Music, and they were like, great, we'll sign him. And from that deal, only one record, one single off of that album was promoted, and that was it because even when you're with a major label and we thought the record was good but when you're competing with a Kim or there's a Drake record coming up or you know there's a Cardi B or whomever is on that roster then guess what you may move down the slot or guess what you know we're going to change the pool of money that you have access to. And for us, it's like, okay, disappointment, but yet. So, the benefit to you and your husband, you know, of course, us being on the inside of the business, we understand that there's a constant pivoting. I was explaining earlier in some other shows that I did that everybody believes that they want to be signed to a major label and the benefit of being in a major label of course is That you then have access to all of the tools and the assets and the money that it required to help you move your career However, you're also still in the queue, right? Yes, so you're waiting in line for your turn and make no mistake about it if somebody pops off before you You get pushed to the back of the line You get pushed to the back of the line. You really do. And that's what it is. And you're technically waiting your turn again to get back in the queue. And that could be a year. It could be a year. It could be two years. Or it could be, you know what, at the end of two years, we don't think we want you in the queue any longer. And they drop you. And they drop you. So these are the things that we want you to know that when I say patience is your friend, you have to be committed and you have to be committed for the long haul because it could happen in the first single or it could take how many singles has John dropped now? This is I think the fifth one. We're rolling up on the fifth one. Yeah and so between Universal and when we relaunched his career because everything now becomes a relaunching. Let it start over because nobody remembers. Exactly. And so when we did that, maybe about three years ago, we found a different producer and a songwriter. And that's a process in itself because that songwriter and producer has to gel with the artist. Yes. And if they don't gel, guess what? There isn't really synergy. There's no synergy. There's no creativity. You can hear the stress in the music. It's not like, okay, I'm there, I'm having fun, I'm giving it my all. You hear less than your all. And so that in itself is a huge task. And talk about the process that is still a financial investment. Oh, absolutely. Because you're going into the studio. Studio time, producer time, engineer time. Yes, engineer time. And then, okay, so if you're songwriting or the producer's songwriting, you get to, okay, does the producer want to give you, well, I shouldn't say, nobody gives you anything. I'm holding this for points for royalty or I am going to charge you 10 grand and still take my royalty. Exactly. And if you don't pay the 10 grand, you don't get the wave track, you don't get the files. There's a whole bunch of files. You don't get any of that to send to mastering. It's a process that you have to really believe in yourself and believe in the product. With John, we believe in John. Now, the flip side of that is you also have to have an artist that is dedicated to this career. You have to have an artist that is constantly improving their craft. Year over year. Because you have to stay relevant. If you have an antiquated sound and they're doing something different right now on the radio, you know, zeitgeist, so to speak, you won't fit in. perfect their craft. Yes, it's not only finding the right music, but it's investing in yourself. So if you're a singer, then that means you should be seeing a vocalist. That means that you should live on social media. All the things that you can do as an artist, you should do more than a hundred percent. Because when you're with a small label, everybody is wearing there are days when I'm calling you and saying, okay, what's going on at radio? There are days when I'm talking to radio, there are days when I'm talking with the publicist, there are days when I'm talking with the artist, and trying to be that nucleus for my little networking constellation and making sure that all the pieces are moving in tandem. And then also reeling my husband in. My husband has become more creative. He does a lot of writing. So that's where his focus is. And he's like, Andrea, okay, let me just give you everything else. And that's okay because you know my background coming from Atlantic Records, worked there for 20 something years, 20 years. And then moved over to the radio side so I understand what radio is looking for, how they make their money. So when I talk to radio I want to speak the language that they understand. Not only that my artist I think he's great, the music is great, but how can I partner with you? Can you get your salesperson in on this? Because if your salesperson is pitching a client, let's make all of this a win-win, not only for us, the record label, but for the radio station and your client. So you have to understand what swim lane you're in and how fast that swimmer is going, what's the temperature of the water. It is, and again, this show is called the Business of Music because we have all encountered encountered too many people that are just on the misguided impression that all they have to be is talented and write a record that everybody likes. There are so many moving parts to that and the competition is so intense. So I'm always trying to reiterate that as an independent artist you have the task, like you just said, of wearing multiple, multiple hats because the playing field is still what it is. And if you're competing against somebody who has an arsenal, and that's what a record label is, you have an arsenal, you have multiple departments, all working in tandem, the marketing department, the PR department, the video department, the radio department, we all, it's me, get together, right? And we decide this is how we're going to impact this project. When you are an independent label, or you are an independent artist, all of that falls on you because you still have to show up as competent as the majors and that's the thing that I keep stressing is that nobody's giving you a pass because you're an indie artist. The game is played a certain way and you have to figure out how to play the game that way. And you have to show up and be competitive. You can't show up and be half, half. There's no half stepping, there's no half committed. And you know, one of the things that I tell the folks that, you know, I consult with right now is, there are so, like literally, you have to be on all these platforms. Social media is a full-time job, in itself. Right? Just that, like to be doing the bare minimum, you have to be on all these platforms, and you have to be there talking to your audience consistently. So you cannot have an artist that's not committed to their success as much as you are committed to their success. So I'm gonna tell you, I'm super impressed by the fact that you guys have been very ride or die with him, not that it's not worth it, right? But I know that from a financial place, you guys have invested hundreds of thousands of dollars into breaking this artist, into delivering him to the marketplace, and having the world see what you see in him. And you have to be willing to ride the wave all the way, because yes, we've invested an ungodly amount of money, and we still haven't recouped that yet. We don't recoup anything until Sereke goes number one, or crosses over into a different market until he's on tour. Just because you may have a number one record, that record could be number one for the week, and guess what, you may not have garnered enough sales to rip that. Yeah. Paying the stylist. The stylist, the video person, the video shoot, the travel that he has to do because once you impact the record at radio and the streaming platform you have to support a demand for him right and nowadays back in the day when you and I were starting out radio stations had budgets to help you bring an artist in that's gone all gone everything is can you bring him in for free so we'll give you a ground in hotel sometimes sometimes and so with that, you have to consider, okay, once you have you have the promotional budget, or I should say the A&R budget, which is everything you do to get the record there that you're going to submit to Radio 4 Airplay, and then you move into the promotional budget. And that is how you move the artist and your team from point A to point B. That's always a cost. And if a radio station does happen to pick up the tap, they just may pick up a tap for two people. So that may be me and John. And then I have to fly in. I have to pay to fly in his DJ. They may just give us one night in a hotel while he lives in... We're going from West Coast to East Coast, it's just the amount of money that you have to be willing to put out. You have to understand that, okay, I know there's going to be a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I just got to keep my head down and just be focused and also be strategic in what you accept, which radio stations you go in, what market. And do something for free. And it's not only about radio, how do you how do you monetize when you go into that market? How do you capitalize on his visibility? So it's radio is tapping into the publicity. Television? Yes, radio. Yeah, because you want all of that to come to play in tandem, right? You want the visual to be there. To be smart, to maximize the money that you've spent to get him in a market. And then, of course, if you can then get him into a market, are there drivable markets nearby? So then you you're going into the market for one event, but you don't want to then just pack him up and send him back to the West Coast after one date. You want to then jump to the next market and puddle jump to the next market so that you then exposed him to at least four or five different stations, audiences in that region, in that area. So that's a part of the strategy. Yes, yes it is. That you're talking about. Yes it is. And so it's, you know, the record industry is one of those industries where you just love it. You just love what you do. I know that it's been ingrained in me now, and I love it, but my viewpoint is very different from when I was a promotion person. My viewpoint is more, I think as a promotion person I was only, I had blinders on. Okay, I just want to get my records played. I want to, you know, make sure that this record goes into power rotation and that's it. I really didn't understand how a radio station operates. As I continue, as a rookie, of course I really just trying to figure out my job, but as I moved more into larger markets and had the opportunity to sit down and speak with maybe the general manager or the operations manager. You're the sales manager. Right. Just get an idea of you know how does radio make money and to understand. Actually, L. Roy Smith made it very simple. I was at a station in Chicago as you know and I had an artist come there and he stopped music so that they can interview this artist for a half an hour. Right. And when we were hour, and Elroy said, I stopped playing music and commercials for you so that you could be on the number one station in the number three market during drive time. And that was so profound to me because that's how they make their money. When they run commercials, if it's during drive time, morning show or drive time when you're driving home from work, that's a premium. Highest listening time. Yes, and so for a radio station to stop the music, to have an artist come and talk. Talk in the middle of what would have been thousands of dollars in revenue. Exactly. So that's your point to understanding? So a couple of weeks ago I did another show on how to be a good client and that was one of the things that we talked about is that you then also have to understand the business that you're in. Yes. Right? Everybody thinks that radio stations are free and they're just there to play your music. They're not. They have overhead, they have employees, they have rent, they have expenses and the only way that they make money is by getting good ratings to sell advertising at a higher rate. You and I both know that drive times generate the most money for a radio station because it's the highest listening time. Part of what I know you're doing, because I know you, is that you're educating your artists on the business of music. Absolutely. Understanding. This is not just about you making a hit record and then automatically everybody's gonna it's gonna be like a domino and everything falls. No, you have to understand your partners at radio, at the streaming services, at wherever and anytime they're stopping their business to accommodate you, you must be grateful. Not only must you be grateful but if you're not, they're not gonna play your record. They're not going to have you back. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. So, one of the things that I do when we're out on the road, I prep my artists before we even walk into the station. You need to- Let me stop you for a second, because one of the things that we always talk about is what has disappeared since you and I were in the game to now? There is no artist development. No. There's no artist development and there isn't any media training at all, none. And so we'll circle back to media training. But I believe in prepping my artists, letting them know who are the key players here, where this station ranks, what this station is known for, how they're embedded in the market, so that when he walks into that station, he has a point of reference. He can start the dialogue, because a lot of times artists think, oh this is just about being interviewed. No, this is really a conversation that you want to engage in. You want to ask the on-air personality, so how did you get started? What was your career like? And let me share with you, find that common thread so that the interview becomes a conversation. A discovery. Exactly, exactly. And so when we circle back to artist media training, that, I'm sorry, you can't see my face. That too can be an arduous task present yourself, how do you articulate your music, what inspires you, what motivates you, your brand, how do you interact when you walk into the station or walk into the ad agency, how to answer questions, how to be Or at the very least, you know, like I always say, you walk into a room and you read the room. Who are the people that you're interacting with? We all pivot and make adjustments based on who we're talking to. When you and I are kiki-hahaing, it's a whole different thing, right? When we have to present ourselves, you know, so you have to be adaptable because it is your business. Exactly. And you have to be willing to also be that salesman. It requires that. Well, you're the number one salesman for yourself.

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Yes.

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So if they decided they didn't like how you were,

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they, boop.

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There's nothing I can do. And what spreads faster? The word of mouth. Word of mouth. That will either uplift you or crush you. Yes, exactly, exactly. And we've both worked with artists where we've seen where that's happened. Exactly. So, it just requires steadfastness and it requires, you have to have an artist that also gels with you. You know. That will listen to you because there are a lot of artists that don't want to take direction. They don't want, they don't want the benefit of your wisdom because of course, like we were saying earlier, everybody thinks they show up and it's a new day. Yes. So that's like an old-fashioned way of doing things. No, I'm not going to do that. Right. No, good business is good business. Absolutely. And that should always be at the forefront of your mind. How is this going to impact my business? Because you know, Mocha Music is also, you know, that's our brand. Yeah. So when my artist is out and you, and if he should do something crazy, my next conversation with him is, first of all, that's not how we do business and now you are impacting my brand. And that's not okay under any circumstances. And artists sometimes are a little temperamental. They're just, you know, they get in their feelings. And I can just give you an example. We showed up for one event and the conversation that I have with my artists is, your job is to perform whether there is five, 50, 500, 5,000 people. So if this event is less than what you expected. Manage your expectations. Exactly, exactly. Manage your expectations. That's what you need to do. You go out there, you perform. Think of it as, now I have an opportunity to spend one-on-one time with my fans Right, you have to really be able to look through the lens of a positive out for everything Yes, you can't get stuck in. Oh my god. Why did this happen? You know, it's not a lot of people Blah blah blah and so it's managing expectations managing emotions, sometimes managing, you know, so what did you wear today? Like, why do you have that on? That's not show ready. We need to get show ready. That's, that's for like, when we're walking into Target or Starbucks, that's not show ready. And so it requires a lot. It does. And I have to say that I'm so grateful that I had the opportunity and I started as you know in the New York office at Atlantic Records. So at my disposal was retail, promotions, publicity, marketing. So for me it was great having that bird's eye view of understanding how all of these different departments operate and what they're looking for. Little did I know years later that I would be tapping into that, but it was a great learning lesson and then you know all the other experiences that come into play, but for the most part artists and the label have to have that synergy and artists, producers, songwriters have to have the same Yeah, it can take a year, 10 years and don't quit your job. Don't quit your job until we say, okay, we have that fabulous tour where you're going to be on the road for the next six months, opening up is going to guarantee X amount of money. So that there's no stress on your life because everybody still has to pay their bills while you're building this career. It could take a minute or it could take 10 minutes. Exactly and you really don't make a lot of money until... Initially you don't. You really don't until you start to make the money when you're able to tour. Yes. Because we know that that's for the most part is money that the label doesn't tap into, a small label anyway. I mean the big ones are doing all these 360 deals so you're giving them a piece of all your action. Right. And so we don't have that. Right. But, you know, we don't make as much money on touring because he's an opening act. And opening acts never get paid a lot of money. So by the time you fly everyone in, by the time you pay for the hotel, car service or rental car, if you walk away with two grand, three grand, then that's a lot. And it goes to him because you got to compensate him for his time. So basically as we wrap it up today, thank you so much for sharing all of that experience with us. We want to, what would you say to people that are listening to us that are in a similar position and who, you know, what kind of takeaway would you give them with respect to the process that we just talked about? Your best advice. Okay, so my three takeaways would be, one, understand your brand, know it, be able to articulate it. What makes you want to be a singer? What do you feel will put you in that spotlight that honors you, your authentic self? That's one. Two, be consistent. This becomes your full-time job or your part-time job. Whatever it is, if you're working part-time and singing be consistent in how you show up for your job because Wreck-it labels small labels. We're not gonna work hard for you. If you don't work hard for yourself. That's any label That's not just a yes a small label. That's a major label because you and I both know if we had an artist That was difficult. We can put them on the shelf and we don't keep it moving. Absolutely. Next, who's standing behind you that wants a shot? Absolutely. And then understand that once you make that decision, sometimes your life is no longer your life because people are going to hit you up on the DM, what's going on, da da da da. So you have to make, you have to understand that when we're out, you may not have any privacy anymore until you get to your room. Boom. Boom. And yes you may be required to wake up at 6 o'clock in the morning to be on a show. So if we got in at 4, probably don't go to sleep. We'll get coffee and go right to the morning show. You have to be willing to work sometimes 12, 14, 24 hours and then get up and drive to the next city. It's a grind. It's a... you Non-stop. I'll never forget and we'll wrap it up with this. I worked with Anderson.Paak at the last label that I worked for and I had a tour with him and he was like, Sandra, I'm not a morning person. Can we make these interviews at like noon? I was like, no, it's morning radio. It's morning radio.

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They want you on.

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Yeah. They want you on.

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So that's it. That's going to wrap it up for us today. Thank you, my sister. I appreciate you coming and sharing your insight. Thank you so much for having me.

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My pleasure.

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Thanks again. This is the 411 on the business of music with SOS. I'm Sandra Smith.

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Thank you and have a great week. Thank you and have a great week.

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you